Curse

Jeydra · Apr 01, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

I'm guessing that Lingering Curse, by consensus one of the most powerful / overpowered skills in PvP right now, will be nerfed next balance update so I thought I'll act first and post this.

Please don't nerf Lingering Curse for PvE. The skill is the only way I've found to pressure through some mobs - the EotN HM Stone Summit in particular. Even then it's not foolproof because pressure takes time to work (HM monsters have almost infinite energy after all) during which it's a stern test of the party's defenses to not die.

I realize that stuff like Cryway, Obsidian / perma tanking, etc will all deal with these monsters quick and simple, but using LC is the only way I've found, without resorting to gimmicks, that will let me engage the Stone Summit honorable 8v8 without abusing their AI (with Obsdian, Shadow Form, Ursan tanks) or abusing the REALLY overpowered PvE skills (Save Yourselves, Cry of Pain, etc) and still win. And before someone mentions how Discordway or Sabway rolls PvE, I'd be impressed if someone returns a screenshot of doing Duncan HM with Discordway / Sabway + H/H.

I'll say LC needs a nerf in PvP because it's an insane amount of pressure coming from one character, but in PvE where pressure isn't even part of the most efficient builds, don't nerf it.

lutz · Apr 01, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

but using LC is the only way I've found, without resorting to gimmicks

Lingering Curse is a gimmick. It's a one-skill pressure. It needs to be nerfed for every side, not just PvP.
Really, if you can't find ways to pressure outside of Lingering Curse, you need to think a little bit harder. There are a whole lot more viable options in PvE than there are in PvP. Think of one.

Rhamia Darigaz · Apr 01, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

engage the Stone Summit honorable 8v8

i applaud your sense of honor good sir.

Jeydra · Apr 01, 2009, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Lingering Curse is a gimmick. It's a one-skill pressure. It needs to be nerfed for every side, not just PvP.
Really, if you can't find ways to pressure outside of Lingering Curse, you need to think a little bit harder. There are a whole lot more viable options in PvE than there are in PvP. Think of one.

If you have a method, care to share it, and post a screenshot to prove it can be done?

Zodiac Meteor · Apr 01, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

WTB Why degen in PvE sucks

Skyy High · Apr 01, 2009, 11:53 PM // 23:53

LOL @ "engaging the Stone Summit honorably without abusing their AI."

Guess what man, if you don't "abuse their AI", you're unbalancing the scenario, because their stupidity is the only thing keeping their wtf-boosted attributes, armor, HP, attack/cast rate, energy level, energy regen, and monster skills in the realm of "balanced compared to the players". Not exploiting their one weakness - dumb AI - simply means that you've set yourself up to be spanked of your own accord.

There's a reason disruption mesmers rock in PvP, and suck in PvE: tactics like pressuring are simply BAD in PvE, and there's not a darn thing you can do to change that.

BulletStopper · Apr 02, 2009, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'd be impressed if someone returns a screenshot of doing Duncan HM with Discordway / Sabway + H/H.

I rarely take screenshots anymore, but PM me and we will go do Duncan with Discord.

Jeydra · Apr 02, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Guess what man, if you don't "abuse their AI", you're unbalancing the scenario, because their stupidity is the only thing keeping their wtf-boosted attributes, armor, HP, attack/cast rate, energy level, energy regen, and monster skills in the realm of "balanced compared to the players". Not exploiting their one weakness - dumb AI - simply means that you've set yourself up to be spanked of your own accord.

Oh they have other weaknesses. They don't know how to prot, they spam skills at random, they can't change their skillsets while I can change mine, they can't retreat to break aggro, etc etc etc.

Like I said, I have pressured through Duncan HM with Lingering Curse. If you want proof I'm happy to upload a screenshot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BulletStopper

I rarely take screenshots anymore, but PM me and we will go do Duncan with Discord.

There's a big difference between two humans + 6 heroes and H/H. If you don't mind trying with two humans, 2 heroes + 4 henchmen, I'll try it with you. Oh and by the way: no consumables of any kind, no summoning stones, no DP removers, etc.

lutz · Apr 02, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you have a method, care to share it, and post a screenshot to prove it can be done?

Everything you said.

Quote:

Cryway, Obsidian / perma tanking, etc will all deal with these monsters quick and simple

If you read my post, you will notice I said that Lingering Curse is part of the list of gimmicks. So, pick one of the gimmicks. I don't care.

Jeydra · Apr 02, 2009, 02:53 AM // 02:53

I challenge you to execute one of the gimmicks with H/H. Pick any one of them, I don't care either, but I'd like to see you do Cryway with one copy of Cry of Pain. I'll say here that I've done Duncan HM H/H with myself as Ursan, but I'll also say that using Lingering Curse is a lot more painless, effective and faster.

By the way if you've read your own post you'll notice that you said there are other ways to pressure. What are these other ways? If you say Cryway / Obsidian or Perma tanking, then I suggest you play more PvE, because neither of these are pressure builds.

Seventh_Samurai · Apr 02, 2009, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

WTB Why degen in PvE sucks

People actually use this for the degen? Who cares, it's the heal reduction I want...

Arkantos · Apr 02, 2009, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

WTB Why degen in PvE sucks

Lingering Curse

Elite Hex Spell. For 6...25...30 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes suffer -0...2...3 Health degeneration, and gain 33% less benefit from healing.

Knowing what skills are used for ftw. At 14 curses, it's a 28 second deep wound hex that has a 10 second recharge. Personally I'd never run it in PvE, but for people who are having problems taking down enemies with lots of healing, it's quite an amazing skill.

draxynnic · Apr 02, 2009, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Well, he's asking for it to remain unchanged in a game mode where it a) isn't as powerful as in PvP, and b) where there's plenty of much more overpowered stuff to worry about. After all, in PvP the heal reduction is a significant part of the game because outpressuring the other side's healers is one of the main routes towards victory, while in PvE it's essentially just a utility skill for dealing with those few mobs that DO have significant healing.

zwei2stein · Apr 02, 2009, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Nerf is likely to be recharge. Currently, it recharges 3 times as fast as it is its duration and i understand that issue is that it way to easy to keep up even with hex removal in play; monster hex removal in PvE is lacking; duration can match recharge for all you should care and it would be enough; if you wan't more, delve in realms of arcane echo (lul)

Or Cost; at 25e you still would not mind for pve because you slot it on necro, aka infinite energy guy.

Or cast time; 2 or ever 3 seconds casting time would kill it for PvP but would not pose slightest problem for pve.

and its not like you really need to use this specific skill; there are others with this similar effect, and deep would is awesome and can be applied in AOE if you really want to; try some physicals.

And since you really, really want to use this skill, i think you will find even nerfed version still quite attractive.

Anyhow, why are you crying prementivelly about nerf you do not know is gonna happen, you do not know how will be handled if it happens, and about skill that is far from being critical.

kedde · Apr 02, 2009, 10:24 AM // 10:24

You're right, you don't have to use any of the overpowered pve skills when you can just a skill thats overpowered in both parts of the game.

lutz · Apr 02, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I challenge you to execute one of the gimmicks with H/H. Pick any one of them, I don't care either, but I'd like to see you do Cryway with one copy of Cry of Pain. I'll say here that I've done Duncan HM H/H with myself as Ursan, but I'll also say that using Lingering Curse is a lot more painless, effective and faster.

By the way if you've read your own post you'll notice that you said there are other ways to pressure. What are these other ways? If you say Cryway / Obsidian or Perma tanking, then I suggest you play more PvE, because neither of these are pressure builds.

What, H/H?
Try actual players. Maybe if you want the chance of beating a Hard Mode area, you should try playing with smart players.

I'm pretty sure most decent builds are viable in PvE. You just haven't thought of one yet. Relying on one gimmick skill is... guess what? A gimmick.

MithranArkanere · Apr 02, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

PvP is usually more like n·X vs n·X, but PvE is usually more like n·X vs (n-7..n+4)·Y.

I never mind much about skill changes, since I do change my builds a lot, but there are two factors that determine PvE skills: Numbers of enemies and levels of enemies.

In PvE a battle may be 8(Lv20)vs400(Lv30), and so, skills in PvE should not be considered to be used in 50 separate fights in which both side have the same chances to win, but as a huge single fight of various waves with pauses of 0..120 seconds between waves, in wich the player side way has more than 50% chances to defeat all enemies without a single death in their side.

As far as I can tell, that already happens, so all I can ask is for future changes to keep that in mind.

So as I see things, with many skills that seem to be overpowered in PvP but normal or weak in PvE, instead changes in numbers between PvE and PvP versions, in many cases, changes in RANGE would be better.

For example, with Lingering Curse or Searing Flames, if you keep the 'nearby' or change to 'in the area' in PvE and change the range to "adjacent" or 'single target' in PvP, most situations in which those skills would be too much disappear.

Limitations in the number of affected enemies work fine too, although a few skills have those, like Chaing Lightning or Dadly Swarm.

Skyy High · Apr 02, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

WTB "in the area" Searing Flames for massive lulz.

Jeydra · Apr 02, 2009, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

What, H/H?
Try actual players. Maybe if you want the chance of beating a Hard Mode area, you should try playing with smart players.

I'm pretty sure most decent builds are viable in PvE. You just haven't thought of one yet. Relying on one gimmick skill is... guess what? A gimmick.

Want me to show you a screenshot of me doing Duncan HM with H/H? In spite of it being (as you so eloquently put it) Hard Mode, and in spite if heroes / henchmen being smart players, I did it.

If you still want to say that there are viable builds that can do Duncan HM H/H, by all means post them. Post a screenshot of you doing Duncan HM with these constraints:

1. One human, preferably Elementalist primary since that's the class I used.
2. Up to three heroes (you may use less if you wish).
3. No consumables, summoning stones, DP removers, candy, etc.
4. You may use any PvE skill you wish.
5. You may not abuse AI - that is, you may not gather aggro and unleash AoE the way Cryway and Obsidian / perma / Ursan tanking works.

After you're done, take a screenshot of the builds you've used plus the /age, and post it here. If you can do this without using Lingering Curse, I'll stand by what I said earlier in the topic and be impressed, and drop this argument. If you cannot, then you drop it instead.

PS: I'm sure there's a way to beat pre-nerf rawrspike. It's just that you, Mitch, Rau, etc etc etc just hadn't thought of it /sarcasm.

lutz · Apr 02, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Want me to show you a screenshot of me doing Duncan HM with H/H? In spite of it being (as you so eloquently put it) Hard Mode, and in spite if heroes / henchmen being smart players, I did it.

If you still want to say that there are viable builds that can do Duncan HM H/H, by all means post them. Post a screenshot of you doing Duncan HM with these constraints:

1. One human, preferably Elementalist primary since that's the class I used.
2. Up to three heroes (you may use less if you wish).
3. No consumables, summoning stones, DP removers, candy, etc.
4. You may use any PvE skill you wish.
5. You may not abuse AI - that is, you may not gather aggro and unleash AoE the way Cryway and Obsidian / perma / Ursan tanking works.

After you're done, take a screenshot of the builds you've used plus the /age, and post it here. If you can do this without using Lingering Curse, I'll stand by what I said earlier in the topic and be impressed, and drop this argument. If you cannot, then you drop it instead.

PS: I'm sure there's a way to beat pre-nerf rawrspike. It's just that you, Mitch, Rau, etc etc etc just hadn't thought of it /sarcasm.

There was a way to beat pre-nerf rawrspike. We did beat them.

Everyone else just didn't run builds or didn't have the ability to run builds to counter rawrspike. (see: euros, other than sup and StS)

Quote:

1. One human, preferably Elementalist primary since that's the class I used.
2. Up to three heroes (you may use less if you wish).
3. No consumables, summoning stones, DP removers, candy, etc.
4. You may use any PvE skill you wish.
5. You may not abuse AI - that is, you may not gather aggro and unleash AoE the way Cryway and Obsidian / perma / Ursan tanking works.

lol pve honor? This is better than I thought it would be.

Run what wins, or find a way to run what wins. Run your Lingering Curse until it gets nerfed, and then find another way to do it after.